Talk:Sonja
Sonja Since I ran out of room on the edit, I'll go further in explaining why the idea that Michael got details wrong doesn't work. For one, we know this isn't what was supposed to happen - Len just couldn't get his act together and apparently wasn't willing to buy a wig and couldn't find a single brunette Hungarian to film the part (according to the Behind The Scenes on the third film). So Michael was always meant to see Sonja as she was. For the other, he saw everything else in the scene as it was, right down to the vampires' symbol above the door, Lucian's physical appearance, the look of the locket, Viktor's physical appearance, and even the symbols on Viktor's clothes. Since we know the reason her hair color changed was that Len didn't think ahead of how he was going to make that shot work, we know it's not Michael's thoughts that made her look blonde. Which means there is a reason for the discrepancy, but not a canon (within the timeline) reason. [[User:AlessaGillespie|''AlessaGillespie]] Talk 05:03, October 26, 2009 (UTC) 12:16, May 28, 2010 (UTC) ::Yes, which is why I wrote it up as there is no canon reason but it can be assumed... That we know it to be a goof is irrelevant. :) Matt shade 20:33, May 28, 2010 (UTC) :::The factual reason is that it was a goof - and it is relevant. We also know for a fact that it's not because Michael was supposed to see the image wrong. Give fault where it's due, this was Len's mistake, and making up excuses for him that aren't true doesn't really do much. And still, it negates that fact that Michael saw everything else correctly and there's no evidence he wasn't meant to see Sonja correctly, making this unprovable speculation, so I'm reverting it again. [[User:AlessaGillespie|AlessaGillespie]] Talk 05:03, October 26, 2009 (UTC) 23:16, May 28, 2010 (UTC) ::::No, it is not relevant. It is a goof in the real world but in the fictional world of Underworld it doesn't matter that Michael got everything else 'correctly', if Sonja looked different in canon then Michael got her appearance 'wrong' hence what I wrote stands (alongside the trivia about the goof, of course). But if you don't want it on here, you're the admin, I can't force you. And it's not even a mistake really, since Tatapolous knowingly chose to cast Mitra as Sonja, he could have had Tania Nolan as Sonja (but Mitra was a bigger box office draw, methinks). Hmm, I wonder if he ever thought about rewriting the script to make Mitra another character who was captain of the Death Dealers? Probably not.Matt shade 12:35, May 30, 2010 (UTC) :::::If you want me to change the part about why she's blonde to Trivia, I can do that, but I don't feel unsupported speculation (declaring Michael's memories wrong) belongs on a wiki. We know for a fact that it wasn't the intentions of the filmmakers that Michael see things wrong, and so saying that's what happened falls under the category of fan speculation. Unless one of the creators says that's what happened, or some really good evidence pops up suggesting that, it doesn't have enough proof to stand its ground on a wiki. I'm not completely adverse to speculation in a wiki, but I think it needs to have a certain amount of evidence to it before it can go up, and I don't feel this theory does. :::::As for Sonja, I think they could have taken the difference in Sonja's appearance, even if it was accidental and caused by lack of planning, and used it to their advantage in the third movie. Sonja could have been her own character, but they chose to make her Selene 0.5, proving they feel the series centers around Selene and Selene only. That's one of the major reasons why I hated the third film. Sonja walked, talked, looked, dressed, and acted just like Selene. I was hoping she would be her own character. But I have hope for the 4th film, especially if they choose to focus on a new character. :) [[User:AlessaGillespie|AlessaGillespie]] Talk 05:03, October 26, 2009 (UTC) 17:27, May 30, 2010 (UTC) ::::::But it doesn't need proof if it is written as speculation (basically saying 'if we choose to look at it like this then it makes perfect sense'). If all three movies is deemed canon, then Michael did see Sonja "wrong" unless we go "Well, there was this Crisis On Infinite Earths things deal elsewhere so reality was altered" and that would really be unsupported speculation. Tatapolous knowingly chose to make Sonja brunette hence Michael's brain ''could have interpreted Lucian's memory differently, such as Dammak screaming in pain which Mitra didn't (which TBH annoyed me) so it is a fact, not speculation, that it can be assumed. And for the record, it's not saying that Lucian forgot Sonja had brown hair, it's saying that the subconscious image of Sonja's death is so beyond what colour her hair was at that moment that Michael's brain eventually filled that part in itself. Is that making an excuse for Tatapolous? No, that's pointing out a fact that means Tatapolous doesn't need an excuse since it's not the insurmountable plothole we think it is at first. ::::::Anyway, I was also annoyed with ROTL over 'Selene 0.5' but I can imagine the pressure they were under as screenwriters.Matt shade 08:48, May 31, 2010 (UTC) :::::::As I said before, I still don't see where there's enough evidence to support it, though I appreciate your point of view. Until the writers write something into the storyline proving it, it's just guesswork, even if it is marked as speculation. I'll move it to trivia and clearly mark it as speculation though, since you seem to feel passionate about it. :) :::::::I don't see where the Sonja thing was T's fault, so much as Len's. She was originally supposed to have dark hair, but it was Len who waited too long to cast, and then was unwilling to dye the actress' hair or buy a wig. Going through film school myself, that annoys me because it's really not that hard to come out of pocket and just buy a damn wig (especially for a scene that blurred), rather than expecting that no one would notice. I blame T. for Sonja's personality, dress, actions, and manner of speaking being identical to Selene's, but it's Len's fault Sonja was blonde in UW. [[User:AlessaGillespie|''AlessaGillespie]] Talk 05:03, October 26, 2009 (UTC) 13:41, May 31, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::That Sonja was blonde in UW is Len's doing but that there is now an inconsistency is T's doing. As for being passionate, as I said, it doesn't matter to me at all if it's on here or not but I don't want it erased because it is assumed it's like I was saying "It can be assumed Erika is a shapeshifter from another galaxy". :) After all, that a blonde Sonja is only seen in a fuzzy 600 year old memory transferred by mistake between two people who seemed to have no prior experience with it is not speculation. :) Matt shade 16:10, May 31, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::If you don't mind me asking, the part about "believing none of the fans would notice." has Wiseman said this or is it someone' opinion?Matt shade 22:30, June 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::Seeing as I don't like speculation, I wouldn't have put it there if he didn't say it. [[User:AlessaGillespie|AlessaGillespie'']] Talk 05:03, October 26, 2009 (UTC) 23:17, June 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::Excellent. Matt shade 23:45, June 1, 2010 (UTC) Mystery Sire? One of the biggest questions I've always had was who exactly turned Sonja into a Vampire. Presumably it would've been Viktor because Viktor was obsessed with the idea of blood purity and would've wanted to keep his new empire in the family. My issue with this is that at no point does it ever tell us exactly who it was or how Sonja became a Vampire. Yes, it was probably Viktor. But it never tells us for sure. It could've just as easily been somebody else on Viktor's orders or even a rouge Vampire who didn't know she was Viktor's daughter for all we know.( 23:04, February 26, 2018 (UTC)) Sonja was born a Vampire, in the Underworld verse, Vampires can have children. Is confirmed that her mother was also a vampire on the novelizations (TrinityOverlord() 23:21, February 26, 2018 (UTC))